Video
Lions not Indefatigables - the Dominions chose to build 13.5in Battlecruisers prior to WWI...
Study Lions not Indefatigables - the Dominions chose to build 13.5in Battlecruisers prior to WWI..., a Dr. Alex Clarke video from 18 Dec 2025, with 56 time notes. Topics include Alternate History, Battle Of Dogger Bank…
Time notes
- 4:38Why the scenario starts with 13.5-inch LionsNotable Point
The starting proposal changes because Lion had already been ordered when the Dominions selected their ships.
- 10:04Dominion cruiser squadrons and imperial cost sharingChapter
The 1909 conference proposed Dominion cruiser squadrons and raised the choice of what kind of battlecruiser should lead them.
- 13:10Dominion self-government and local defence costsNotable Point
British demands for local naval spending formed part of a long effort to distribute imperial defence costs.
- 17:16Lion and Indefatigable: comparing complete procurement costsChapter
An Indefatigable price excluding weapons makes the saving over an all-up Lion price look larger than it was.
- 19:08Lion's broadside and the cruiser-hunting tradeoffNotable Point
Lion combined a practical eight-gun 13.5-inch broadside with greater speed for fighting enemy battlecruisers.
- 22:15Matching Dominion ships to future threatsNotable Point
A cruiser threat justified Indefatigable, while the prospect of enemy battlecruisers strengthened the case for Lion.
- 24:42Lion's shorter range and imperial coaling stationsNotable Point
Lion's shorter nominal endurance had to be weighed against its speed and Britain's extensive coaling network.
- 26:24Capital-ship ordering dates and all-up costsChapter
The 1909 ordering sequence shows that the Dominion ships could have joined the Lion program without waiting for a later design generation.
- 29:53QuestionWhy were small-tube boilers not adopted in the Queen Elizabeth class when related machinery was already available?AnswerQ&A
The technology existed, but the Royal Navy avoided stacking another major change onto a design already introducing new speed, armament, and gun layout.
- 33:42Tiger's price jump and the cost of choosing LionNotable Point
The roughly £90,000 gap between Australia and Lion is used to challenge the cost argument, beside Tiger's much larger price increase.
- 42:30HMS New Zealand, range, and Dominion fundingChapter
New Zealand's capital contribution bought the empire another battlecruiser while Britain absorbed its personnel and operating costs.
- 43:21Tiger's endurance at 24 knotsNotable Point
Tiger's estimated endurance at high speed complicates comparisons based on nominal cruising range.
- 47:28The 1909 naval panic and a twelve-ship imperial orderNotable Point
Dominion battlecruisers raised the 1909 empire-wide order to twelve capital ships, including two funded outside Britain's ten-ship parliamentary program.
- 48:45Lion as a response to German battlecruisersChapter
Lion prepared British battlecruisers to defeat enemy battlecruisers as well as hunt armored cruisers.
- 54:24Moltke and Goeben as possible Far Eastern opponentsNotable Point
Germany's practice of sending powerful cruiser pairs overseas gives the Dominion Lion proposal a longer-term strategic rationale.
- 57:39QuestionHow much would the cost fall if Britain and the Dominions ordered about seven similar Lion-type ships?AnswerQ&A
Only modestly, because several yards would build the ships at much the same time.
- 58:29QuestionWould a larger force of 13.5-inch battlecruisers produce higher postwar treaty limits or prevent a treaty altogether?AnswerQ&A
Not confidently from the extra Lions alone; the treaty outcome depends on how their wartime service changes Dogger Bank and everything after it.
- 59:56QuestionWould Queen Mary and Tiger become cheaper if the empire built roughly ten Lion-class ships?AnswerQ&A
They probably would not be built at all unless a much larger threat justified continuing battlecruiser expansion.
- 1:02:17QuestionWhen did another country's fleet become a British threat rather than a welcome contribution to maritime security?AnswerQ&A
Intent, geography, and the wider military balance mattered more than a fixed percentage of Royal Navy strength; Germany triggered all three concerns.
- 1:05:57Second-batch Lions accelerate British designChapter
Four 1909 Lion-type orders fit the assumed yard capacity and give designers another batch in which to incorporate improvements.
- 1:10:29Dominion Lions and the Pacific gun raceChapter
Pacific Dominion Lions could hasten Japanese construction within Eight-Eight Fleet limits and increase interest in heavier American guns.
- 1:12:51Germany's response to a larger modern British squadronNotable Point
A larger, more uniform British battlecruiser force raises the question of whether Germany should persist with its historical designs.
- 1:18:21A 15-inch Tiger and fast-battleship convergenceChapter
Earlier design evolution makes Tiger a plausible first 15-inch ship and leaves small-tube boilers and greater speed as Queen Elizabeth's major new features.
- 1:23:12QuestionWould the Queen Elizabeth class gain triple turrets or small-tube boilers in this scenario?AnswerQ&A
Small-tube boilers are judged more likely, potentially with five twin turrets and a speed of about 25-26 knots.
- 1:27:18Dogger Bank with faster, heavier British shipsChapter
Replacing the slow ships in the chase with modern battlecruisers lets the British close together and makes German disengagement harder.
- 1:31:16Could Queen Elizabeth join the Dogger Bank force?Notable Point
A hypothetical 28-knot Queen Elizabeth gives a reason to combine the fast battleship and battlecruiser forces.
- 1:33:04Alexander Bethell and Beatty's signalsNotable Point
Adding Queen Elizabeth could bring a senior officer prepared to challenge an ambiguous signal.
- 1:37:23Why a former intelligence director could challenge BeattyNotable Point
Bethell's institutional experience supplies the reasoning behind his imagined independence at Dogger Bank.
- 1:38:36Heavy guns and director fire control at Dogger BankNotable Point
Two 15-inch ships and three 13.5-inch ships form one proposed force for a more destructive pursuit.
- 1:40:36Could Germany trade battleships for more battlecruisers?Notable Point
Cutting battleship orders offers Germany one possible response, though the scenario expects the historical programme to persist.
- 1:43:08Dogger Bank simulations and the damaged-ship dilemmaNotable Point
An altered-force simulation tests how an early hit could force Germany to choose between escape and protecting a damaged ship.
- 1:44:25What follows if the First Scouting Group is destroyed?Chapter
A major German defeat could cost experienced commanders as well as ships, while larger British light forces press the retreat.
- 1:48:14Could Britain turn the coastal raiding campaign around?Notable Point
A depleted German scouting force could leave Britain more willing to risk fast ships in raids along the German coast.
- 1:53:14Dogger Bank damage and future capital-ship designNotable Point
If the newer ships absorbed damage well, their performance could strengthen the case for another fast-battleship generation.
- 1:54:28The cost of missing Jutland's lessonsNotable Point
A victory that prevents a Jutland-like battle could leave later navies without some of its hard-earned operational lessons.
- 2:00:00QuestionWould a stronger British battlecruiser fleet make the German army intervene in naval budgets sooner?AnswerQ&A
Only if Germany spends beyond its historical plan; matching Britain more aggressively would bring the army-budget conflict forward.
- 2:03:26QuestionWould a 13.5-inch HMS New Zealand be even more formidable given her wartime reputation for luck?AnswerQ&A
The joke adds heavier guns to the ship's established reputation for surviving danger.
- 2:04:47QuestionWould one Tiger, one Queen Mary, four Lions, one Indefatigable, and three Invincibles simply negate Britain's historical battlecruiser losses at Jutland?AnswerQ&A
No simple subtraction works, because the altered force changes Dogger Bank first and may prevent a historical Jutland from occurring at all.
- 2:05:54QuestionIf Tiger already carried eight 15-inch guns, what armament and speed would the Queen Elizabeth class adopt?AnswerQ&A
Probably either eight guns at about 28 knots or ten guns at about 26 knots, using small-tube boilers and familiar twin turrets.
- 2:07:12Faster R-class ships and eight-gun RenownsNotable Point
Improved machinery could pass into the R class and leave Renown and Repulse with eight 15-inch guns.
- 2:13:04QuestionHow would France, Austria-Hungary, and Italy respond to faster British 15-inch capital ships?AnswerQ&A
Italy would likely press the Francesco Caracciolo class hardest, while French and Austro-Hungarian responses would be more constrained.
- 2:16:21QuestionCould Queen Elizabeth carry twelve 15-inch guns at 26 knots using triple turrets?AnswerQ&A
The design is treated as technologically possible, but British reluctance to adopt an untried arrangement makes it unlikely.
- 2:17:31Why speed alone could not confer capital-ship prestigeNotable Point
A very fast ship with smaller guns might gain tactical freedom, but it would not satisfy the prestige demands that drove prewar capital-ship procurement.
- 2:20:14QuestionWould a larger British victory over the German scouting group send more ships to Gallipoli?AnswerQ&A
The existing Dardanelles force was already strong; lower North Sea risk might instead make Britain more willing to accept losses.
- 2:21:06Tegetthoff's triple turrets and naval statusNotable Point
Austro-Hungarian turret arrangements could confer regional prestige without meeting Britain's different expectations as the leading maritime power.
- 2:22:23QuestionWould the Germans still dare to bring the High Seas Fleet out against the stronger British force?AnswerQ&A
Probably at first, but not after losing the First Scouting Group that made German raids and traps possible.
- 2:23:36QuestionWould assigning the Third Battlecruiser Squadron to Harwich Force improve its operations?AnswerQ&A
It would add cover, but the accompanying senior admiral could override Tyrwhitt and reduce the force's operational advantage.
- 2:25:02QuestionWhy can airliners gain or lose fuselage sections more readily than warships?AnswerQ&A
Ships can be stretched, but hull curvature, strength, loading, stability, and hydrodynamics make the change more complex and politically unattractive.
- 2:26:53QuestionHow would faster Queen Elizabeth and R classes affect the later Admiral-class design?AnswerQ&A
The Admirals could begin as well-protected fast battleships. That makes all four more likely to be completed and alters treaty bargaining.
- 2:31:23QuestionCould torpedo bombers be developed in time to attack a German fleet that refuses battle?AnswerQ&A
Potentially; a fleet-in-being would raise the priority of both torpedo aircraft and the carriers needed to deploy them.
- 2:31:49QuestionWould the scenario create permanent Dominion flagships or another lasting Dominion naval arrangement?AnswerQ&A
Possibly, but the larger effect may be no Washington treaty if the United States chooses rapid capital-ship replacement instead.
- 2:32:19QuestionWould a 13.5-inch 50-calibre gun appear in this timeline?AnswerQ&A
Probably not; Britain would more likely improve the 45-calibre weapon because its slower wear better suited global operations.
- 2:33:22QuestionWould submarine losses and low-freeboard problems still be recognized if Jutland never occurred?AnswerQ&A
Yes; underwater threats would still reveal them, while only Jutland-specific operational lessons would disappear.
- 2:34:03QuestionWould a Tiger-derived Admiral really be better if underwater protection issues still had to be addressed?AnswerQ&A
The reply points to Tiger's better freeboard and initial underwater protection, without specifying a complete revised protection scheme.
- 2:35:33Why the alternate Admirals follow the fast-battleship lineNotable Point
The closing clarification places the proposed Admirals after Queen Elizabeth and the R class in design ancestry.
- 2:37:39The displacement cost of a 30-knot fast battleshipNotable Point
The final design estimate puts a possible 30-knot fast battleship at roughly 48,000-50,000 tons.